#5: Effective Hiring Manager Partnerships in Global TA with Mary Kay Baldino

Mary Kay Baldino:
00:41

If all you have is humility and you're a really good listener, then you're a doormat and you're not actually going to end up improving anything. You're not gonna end up being influential. You also have to pair that with expertise and the confidence to push, and you have to have data and evidence to back it up.

Rhona Pierce:
00:59

That's Mary Kay Baldino. She's the head of talent acquisition at a global company with over 10,000 employees. She's got a ton of experience building strong partnerships with hiring managers on a global scale. And in today's episode, she's sharing the importance of balancing confidence and humility as a TA leader.

Mary Kay Baldino:
01:19

Confidence to to say, you know, I'm really am an expert at this, and I can help you solve your problems, right? And the humility to really be able to listen carefully to what people's pain points are.

Rhona Pierce:
01:34

How to create a culture of vulnerability and learning.

Mary Kay Baldino:
01:37

That ability to ask questions and say I'm not sure should be celebrated.

Rhona Pierce:
01:42

Navigating cultural differences in a global organization.

Mary Kay Baldino:
01:46

Being willing to not have your own story in your head, but to actively manage that while you're in conversation with people is so important.

Rhona Pierce:
01:53

And maintaining a human centric approach to recruiting.

Mary Kay Baldino:
01:57

Human needs are human needs. People want clarity, people want they want job opportunities that are high quality job opportunities that where they're gonna have a career growth, where they're gonna be treated. Again, are we treating people with dignity and respect?

Rhona Pierce:
02:15

Welcome to Throw Out the Playbook, the podcast for recruiters tired of hearing that hiring is broken and ready to do something about it. I'm your host, Rona Pierce. Let's hear about how Mary Kay got started in talent acquisition.

Mary Kay Baldino:
02:28

Well, I had had a bit of an unusual start. I went to college for English literature with an emphasis in Shakespeare. And, very useful career path. I had no idea what I wanted to do after college, but my freshman advisor was the head of the Furr Center and was the 1st adult in my life to say, you know, you might be wasting a lot of money going to college if you don't actually have a plan for what you might wanna do after college. I've gone in thinking, well, I'm a freshman.

Mary Kay Baldino:
03:00

I have 4 years to figure out what's next. So I started taking a lot of personality tests and all the kinds of career evaluation tests that the career center had available. And none of them pointed to, the same things. The only common denominator was that I liked working with people. And then I might want to consider going into personnel because back then, that was a long, long time ago.

Mary Kay Baldino:
03:26

That's what it was called. So I started, working in the career center. I started, doing internships and and I started calling companies and saying, hi. I'm a college student. I'm looking at a career in personnel.

Mary Kay Baldino:
03:41

And, would you be willing to meet with me and tell me what that means? And, I got a lot of no's actually, which is why I always say yes to no when I get those kind of calls. But, but they did. People did be they were really generous with their time. They, they helped me understand what the group has looked like and what my options were.

Mary Kay Baldino:
04:04

1 of the internships I did was in recruiting for a temp agency. And I think they felt like they were gonna get a cheap receptionist for the summer, a college student. I felt like I was gonna get real experience. So I just started saying, well, I'm gonna go do these interviews now. And I really enjoyed it, and I stayed with that temp agency through my college years, doing interviews, gradually taking on more account management responsibilities.

Mary Kay Baldino:
04:32

And by the time I graduated with my bachelor's of arts in English, if this isn't Shakespeare, I had enough work experience and nobody cared what my degree was in anyway. And I started right out of college managing a tough agency. That is amazing. Long story, but it was really about having people who kinda intervene with me at the right places, early on and really pushed me to figure out what would, what would really inspire me and where could I lean into my strengths.

Rhona Pierce:
05:05

It's always so good, and I always, like you, had a ton of people say no when you asked about things. And I always like to say yes to people because really very few people I've spoken to and I've hired over the years have ever told me I went to school for recruiting. It's always something that someone falls into, gets pushed into, or like

Mary Kay Baldino:
05:27

stumbles upon.

Rhona Pierce:
05:28

That's right. It's amazing. As someone who has transitioned from individual contributor to more of a TA leadership role, were there any shifts that you had to make in how you approached fostering relationships with hiring managers?

Mary Kay Baldino:
05:48

Definitely had to shift my perspective from focusing on each individual hiring manager and what their open requisition was to looking at the organization much more broadly in terms of overall talent strategy, being able to sit down with executive leadership and talk about what was going on in terms of trends and not having to have the conversations about where we at with this process for this one role at a time. So, raising up that perspective to be able to utilize data and trends and patterns to describe what was going on instead of having, you know, really pretty constrained narrative around OneSearch. That was that was a change, and, I'm a data geek at heart. And so it was really, it was really kind of a good change. And then later on, I also got trained in Lean 6 Sigma, and it was like opening up a door and seeing that you have this really well stocked closet with all kinds of like, imagine your favorite hobby and it you you open the door and there's a surprise of all these wonderful, tools and hobby kinds of things.

Mary Kay Baldino:
07:14

That was what Lean 6 Sigma Training did for me. It was like somebody gave me a vocabulary and a tool set for how my brain already worked. And so, that was also really important, in developing kind of leadership skills and the ability to talk to the business about, strategy, data, evidence, and how to solve root cause problems.

Rhona Pierce:
07:39

Amazing. What advice would you give to those taking on TA leadership roles for the first time?

Mary Kay Baldino:
07:47

I think it's really important that you have, you know, both confidence and humility. So the confidence to to say, you know, I'm really am an expert at this and I can help you solve your problems. Right? And the humility to really, be able to listen carefully to what people's pain points are. You know, talent acquisition in the business are partners.

Mary Kay Baldino:
08:18

We have mutual goals. We want exactly the same kinds of outcomes in the end. We want high quality hires. We don't want to have to do rework. We want people to succeed in our organizations.

Mary Kay Baldino:
08:32

And when those relationships get strained and they start to feel like they're antagonistic, it's usually because there's either a lack of confidence around expertise or there's a lack of humility and that willingness to really listen and understand what the pain points are and how you can help. And that goes both ways, by the way. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce:
08:55

Yeah. Yeah.

Mary Kay Baldino:
08:56

Yeah. Partnership. It's a partnership. So those rules are the same. Like, those those kind of ground rules are the same either way.

Mary Kay Baldino:
09:03

Perfect.

Rhona Pierce:
09:03

What were some of the early mistakes or missteps that you made in those hiring manager relationships, and how did you course correct?

Mary Kay Baldino:
09:12

Yeah. As somebody who's really extroverted and and confident, most of mine were in the humility category. You know, really wanting to get to standardization, wanting to get to, you know, a more efficient process and and going into the context of, you know, a team that wasn't doing things well from my perspective and not taking the time to understand the history or not taking the time to, do enough listening before making recommendations. And I think as I, matured and I I learned how to be a better consultant to the business, I was able to overcome some of that. But it really was, a matter of, you know, understanding that it it didn't matter if I was right.

Mary Kay Baldino:
10:02

It mattered if I was creating a shared vision.

Rhona Pierce:
10:05

So, so important. And I think that's something that most of us who have transitioned from individual contributors to leadership and TA can relate to because you have all these ideas you want to come in and it's like my way, my way. And then you learn that that doesn't work. You have to like, it has to be a shared vision. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce:
10:25

And humility, really, it's it's the same answer I give when people ask, like, hey. What's the most important skill as a leader? Humility. Because you're going to have to, like, swallow your pride so many times over and over and over again.

Mary Kay Baldino:
10:41

Yeah. And and at the same time, if if all you have is humility and you're a really good listener, then you're a doormat and you're not actually going to end up improving anything. You're not gonna end up being influential, you also have to pair that with expertise and the confidence to, to push and to say, you know, really let me walk you through my reasoning here. Are you open to feedback? Here's what I'm observing.

Mary Kay Baldino:
11:09

And you have to have data and evidence to back it up.

Rhona Pierce:
11:12

And something that I know that's big for you is courage. I actually read about it. It's your number one personal value as a leader. Could you share a specific example of how you've had to courageously confront a difficult situation with a hiring manager and how leading with vulnerability and courage helped overcome it.

Mary Kay Baldino:
11:36

I remember a CFO that I worked with earlier in my career who had some really strong biases about the kinds of backgrounds that financial analysts needed to come from. And it was, you know, it was it was completely biased. It was also limiting our ability to to source efficiently. It was, you know, limiting the diversity of our candidate pools and, you know, we work together in an organization that cared a lot about, improving at diversity, equity, and inclusion. So I sat down with the CFO and said, you know, first of all, let me show you the data, on what, you know, the funnel looks like.

Mary Kay Baldino:
12:22

Because data is, is an element of truth. Right? You you can agree on basic facts and that helps put, kind of some shared meaning into the pool and like get you on the same level playing field. If you can start from the shared facts and shared information, but also, you know, asking probing questions about, why? Why is this, particular, you know, kind of element of somebody's background so important to you and learning about their own personal career history and journey and, and and some of it is calling people in.

Mary Kay Baldino:
13:02

Right? That when you are challenging bias, it's often you're challenging a bias that's rooted in, kind of system that uphold white supremacy. And so you do have to be able to call people in and help them, you know, self discover around why they have that bias, where it's coming from, and how they can, raise their own awareness and education level to help o help the organization overcome it. So, you know, helping that executive understand that this was coming from their own history and their own bias and that maybe it actually wasn't helpful, in terms of building out a more talented and diverse team, was a bit of a journey and it didn't happen all in one conversation. But you have to have the courage to challenge structures and challenge leaders to be better.

Mary Kay Baldino:
13:59

And I think most good leaders, they that they genuinely want to be better. They genuinely want to be better and they they often don't know how. Everyone's got their history and their story and their background and that leads that that's where a lot of biases come from. Right? So, that takes courage.

Mary Kay Baldino:
14:19

It takes truth. You have to be a truth teller and, often that truth is exhibited through having facts and data and, being able to illustrate those and that's part of education. Right? And I also think it takes vulnerability. I knew that going into those conversations, I was going to have to be an excellent listener.

Mary Kay Baldino:
14:41

I I was gonna have to show empathy. I was gonna have to, you know, be willing to hear things I might not like hearing. And, and yet it was the right thing to do. And ultimately, we got to a much different place and we were able to change the hiring criteria and open up the candidate pool to a far more diverse slate of candidates. And they hired some really excellent people that would never have been considered if that hadn't been challenged.

Rhona Pierce:
15:11

That's such a great story and I love how you mentioned vulnerability. You know, vulnerability is often seen as a weakness in corporate settings. It is. But you really champion it as a strength.

Mary Kay Baldino:
15:24

Yes.

Rhona Pierce:
15:24

How do you create an environment where both your team and hiring managers feel safe to be vulnerable and, like, talk openly about their challenges or any concerns?

Mary Kay Baldino:
15:37

Yeah. I think vulnerability is a strength because it's when people are capable of vulnerability that they're capable of learning. And so if you build an environment where people first and foremost feel that they are treated with dignity and respect. Every person. Every person deserves that.

Mary Kay Baldino:
15:58

And, if they feel treated with dignity and respect, that is foundational to being capable of feeling vulnerable. I think there's a lot of other things you can do as a leader to help build that environment where vulnerability is a strength. Asking people for feedback consistently. Asking people for their input, and seeking out, you know, diverse perspectives is is really important. But when people ask questions, I think especially as people are newer or they're onboarding or there's working in a stretch assignment, That ability to ask questions and say I'm not sure should be celebrated.

Mary Kay Baldino:
16:37

So it is so important to me that when somebody asks a question, that they're they understand there is no stupid questions. There's never any stupid questions. Yeah. That that is critical. That is so critical.

Mary Kay Baldino:
16:55

And, I think there are ways to build those skills and build that resilience and in teams just by establishing really clear leadership behaviors around what happens when somebody says, I don't know the answer to this or I'm not sure. And when you celebrate that and when you thank them for being vulnerable and then you reinforce that over and over again, you're demonstrating what you want, what kind of culture you want, what kind of behavior you want.

Rhona Pierce:
17:31

That is so good. I know that now you work in a global organization, which brings in a lot of different aspects to this whole hiring manager and recruiter relationship. What unique challenges have you faced building relationships with hiring managers from diverse cultural backgrounds,

Mary Kay Baldino:
17:59

I really I really enjoy it. I think it's in a uniquely challenging thing, because recruiting practices aren't and can't be the same globally. There are some certain fundamental underlying elements. Right? You need data, you need tracking, you know, all of that.

Mary Kay Baldino:
18:22

But, recruiting practices can't be the same because labor markets aren't the same. Just like in a single country like the US, you know, you don't treat, every search exactly the same and you certainly, can extrapolate that on a much larger scale when you're talking about, how do you extend them into global settings. So things that would not be culturally appropriate, in the US are radically different in other countries. Not only for cultural reasons, but even for systemic reasons like labor laws, labor market conditions, economic reasons, you know. So some countries have you know, every employee on a, a contract.

Mary Kay Baldino:
19:07

Right? Their employees are contracted and they have really strict, you know, time frames where people have to give notice periods, things like that. Those are not things we deal with in the United States where, you know, things are very much a employment at will type of enterprise. In fact, it's really hilarious to explain what employment at will looks like to people from some of these other countries. They're like, how do you run a business that way?

Mary Kay Baldino:
19:35

Right? So I think it's it's understanding and and you it's self education and again, listening and getting people into storytelling mode as you're starting to work with them. Like, really understanding how you I can walk in your shoes. How do I, deeply understand the unique challenges and problems that you're going to have that are way outside my own personal context, but you can help me understand them. And I think there's many, many large and small examples of that.

Mary Kay Baldino:
20:12

A small one that came up recently was that we have social media channels that are shared globally. Right? Linkedin is an example and Facebook and and so, there are certain things about, Philippine the Filipino culture that really wouldn't fly in the United States. Like, we stay away from a lot of religious, overtones in how we communicate with associates here in the US. But in the Philippines where the the main religion in the country is Catholic, you know, over 90% of Filipinos are Catholic, they were posting something on Facebook that was about the, closure of their assessment centers for the Lenten, long Lenten weekend.

Mary Kay Baldino:
21:01

Right? That's culturally appropriate there and it is not in the US. We wouldn't necessarily do that. We might focus on like it's spring break or something different. Yeah.

Mary Kay Baldino:
21:14

But, understanding the context is so critical to being able to, help facilitate in the right ways.

Rhona Pierce:
21:24

That's so it's it's reminding me as you're talking because I'm not from the US. So when I moved here just 14 years ago after having my career in I'm from Latin America from Panama. Like, all of these differences that you're explaining, I was like, yeah. This was hard for me. Like, at will employment.

Rhona Pierce:
21:41

I was like, wait. What? And it goes both ways. Like, there's no laws. Right.

Rhona Pierce:
21:49

And then, yeah, it's like, I had never worked a Good Friday in my life. I'm not Catholic, but, yeah, my country is Catholic. So it's like, wait, We're working on Good Friday. So yeah. That that that was interesting.

Rhona Pierce:
22:02

There's also

Mary Kay Baldino:
22:03

kind of common ground though, when it comes to recruiting. I mean, the business outcomes that are desirable are really the same globally. Even certain best practices around things. In India, for example, it's very very common to use fairly heavy hand with assessments and testing. You know, there's a completely different kind of labor market there and and there's no kind of, real rules or regulations that say well, you you your test must meet these kind of clear standards.

Mary Kay Baldino:
22:41

Right? But the best practices are on how do you construct a fair and reliable test, they're global. Those are universal. And so when I think about, you know, work I'm doing around our assessment program and structuring it, it really is applicable globally, even though we don't have the same context or the same, market conditions or the same, you know, kind of labor laws from country to country. Those universal principles of we want to treat people fairly, we want to have tests that are are reliable and we want to have tests that are, predictive of performance on the job.

Mary Kay Baldino:
23:21

And how you get there can be the same across cultures.

Rhona Pierce:
23:25

Yes. Very, very true. Can you share an example of a time when cultural differences or nuances impacted your approach to collaborating with a hiring manager?

Mary Kay Baldino:
23:38

I think that a lot of the work that I've done, with other cultures has been, about understanding, some of the the dynamics around gender. So there are definitely differences from US culture where we are very individualistic and, you know, we we do not have sort of a communal perspective, where the team is above put a set above kind of the individual, and in other cultures particularly, some of the Asian cultures that I've worked closely with. That sense of, you know, hierarchy mattering and team above individual, recognizing those dynamics was really important. Because there were definitely times when I was in conversations with hiring managers or executives in some of those countries where if I wasn't sensitive to the cultural context, I would have said, don't treat me this way. I feel that you're being offensive.

Mary Kay Baldino:
24:49

And it was really important that, I was able to kind of, set aside some of my own cultural biases around this is how people need to interact with me in order to be acceptable, and understand why they would say or do or you know behave in a certain way. Because of their cultural context. So I think being, being willing to not have your own story in your head, but to actively manage that while you're in conversation with people is so important.

Rhona Pierce:
25:23

And with all of your experience now leading teams, how do you make sure that your teams who are working with hiring managers from different countries and different cultural backgrounds, how do you make sure that they're equipped with the cultural awareness needed, to build these strong relationships?

Mary Kay Baldino:
25:42

I think some of that depends on having a shared framework where the roles and the accountabilities are really clear. A lot of the framework of, you know, recruiter enablement, hiring manager enablement that, my team is focused on here over the past couple of years has really been about, making sure that there's clear accountability kind of boundaries. That we understand, how recruiting is gonna deliver and how managers are gonna deliver. How we can, work together to make that smoothly and run smoothly. And I think it is so important to have structures and frameworks.

Mary Kay Baldino:
26:27

Right? If you're only relying on individual people's, you know, competency and and interpersonal skills alone, you're going to run into problems. There has to be structure. There has to be frameworks that are well understood and that cross those kind of cultural lines. Right?

Mary Kay Baldino:
26:49

So, as long as you have some of those, process and accountability frameworks in place, it makes the then the gives the people the ability to focus on just how do I keep improving my interpersonal effectiveness at this? How do I stay in listening mode? And I'll go back to that sort of culture that I focus on building around vulnerability. Staying in learning mode. Right?

Rhona Pierce:
27:16

How do you communicate those processes, those structure with both your team and with hiring managers? I I would imagine that's important for this to work.

Mary Kay Baldino:
27:27

It is important and you you have to reinforce what the process and structures are gonna look like at every touch point that you have. Right? So we have written communications and guides that go out, at the point when we have requisitions coming in. We have ongoing training modules that are online and accessible on demand. We have a variety of of different, learning opportunities for recruiters as well as, you know, just mentorship in the moment, right?

Mary Kay Baldino:
28:00

A lot of mentorship needs to be in the moment. And, you know, as you're thinking about recruiter manage and manager enablement, I think it's really important to understand what are we doing that's structural. So we're setting up the the guardrails for processes to run smoothly and for it to be actually harder to go off the rails than to stay on track. Right? And what are we doing to do the skill building, which can be a longer and more painful path sometimes, but, still important to invest in.

Rhona Pierce:
28:36

Now shifting a little to the thing that I think all of us at TA don't necessarily love about our job, but it's important. It's like the compliance to policies and laws and things like that. They're different all over the world.

Mary Kay Baldino:
28:52

So in a

Rhona Pierce:
28:53

global organization, yeah, in a global organization, you have to really be mindful of it. And they're very some might be contradictory between countries and regions. I see. So how do you align your team's collaboration strategies with hiring managers while respecting those local nuances.

Mary Kay Baldino:
29:13

Well, some of how we we do that, again, goes back to some of the structure and process and you can reinforce that within your, HR platform. Right? So within your ATS, you can set up workflows and rules and guidelines that, are modeled after what needs to happen from a client's perspective in that particular country. So the amount of information that we collect on our application form that's really really personal, in India is huge compared to what we would collect on a US based application form. Labor laws, even, you know, managing some of these personally identifiable information, radically different from country to country.

Mary Kay Baldino:
29:57

So, you know, you have to be have the right partners, even attorneys, on the ground in those countries who are advising and but you can have some underlying philosophical agreement as well like what is the kind of candidate experience we're hoping to deliver? How are we demonstrating our company's values and culture at every step in the candidate experience and, you know, creating the right impression of our employer brand at each step in the process. So those are the kind of philosophical conversations that, sort of underpin how you approach some of the process and the guidelines, to not just comply but to go beyond mere compliance to actually creating a positive experience.

Rhona Pierce:
30:46

Yeah. And that brings up a good point. Like, candidate experience at the end of the day, no matter where you are and it I think from my experience at least in global, organizations as well, candidate experience, you always want it to be the same. Like, candidates all want the same. They wanted to be treated like humans Yes.

Rhona Pierce:
31:05

No matter where they are in the world, and they want communication. So that's one thing that is, like, exactly the same no matter where.

Mary Kay Baldino:
31:12

Human needs are human needs. People want clarity. People want, they want job opportunities that are high quality job opportunities that where they're gonna have the career growth, where they're gonna be treated. Again, dignity and respect. Everything that's, you know, that's the baseline.

Mary Kay Baldino:
31:33

Right? Just are we treating people with dignity and respect? Some of that means, are we getting back to them in a timely manner? And some of that means, like, when we get back to them, are we, you know, illustrating our brand in a positive and encouraging way? So you you're always gonna say no to far more people than you say yes to.

Mary Kay Baldino:
31:54

And it remembering that you're saying no, or no, not right now anyway to human beings who all have these unique and individual lives and hopes and dreams is is so important. Tailored acquisition is so exciting to me because I feel like, one, it it is fundamental to every business. If it goes well, everything else in the business goes well. And if it goes poorly, you're gonna have problems in every other area of the business as well. It's also exciting because you're touching people's individual lives.

Mary Kay Baldino:
32:30

You're giving them hope. You're giving them, you know, for some people you're fulfilling their dreams. That is a really, incredible impact to have at both the organizational and the individual level.

Rhona Pierce:
32:45

Yeah. And when you sit back and think about it at the core, that's also why I love talent acquisition. It's like, yes, you're you're helping people. It's just I love it. I just I could talk about this for hours,

Mary Kay Baldino:
32:58

about how important

Rhona Pierce:
32:59

the work that we do is

Mary Kay Baldino:
33:01

It's funny. I've worked in other areas of HR. I've been the nature generalist. I've done employee relations. I've been actually an affirmative action compliance director.

Mary Kay Baldino:
33:09

I've done all kinds of other things. I've led data analytics teams. I always come back to talent acquisition though. It is one of the most complicated jobs I can think of. People are predictable, you know, you wanna mess up a process, you just insert, you know, human beings into it.

Mary Kay Baldino:
33:29

And yet it is so incredibly exciting, and it's absolutely can always be improved on. I even just think about, you know, how technology has improved over the years that I've been in in a talent acquisition and, what you can do now, today that wasn't even, you know, possible. I started off in the days when it was really you were using a phone and a piece of paper to conduct business, you know, And it's it's gotten to a place now where it's just a, you know, incredibly exciting time.

Rhona Pierce:
34:06

Yeah. I think the last question I have is, as a global TA leader, how do you balance, like, the need for standards and prep and processes and practices with the flexibility required to adapt to local hiring manager preferences and cultural norms?

Mary Kay Baldino:
34:26

Yeah. I think a lot of it is understanding that the labor market drives so much And that, labor markets can operate at a really micro kind of level. I mean, even if we take India for example, the labor markets are incredibly different from, from one city to the next. Right? So, you know, where you place your offices is gonna influence, things about your, your process and your, how you're managing your hiring managers and what kind of candidate experience you're delivering.

Mary Kay Baldino:
35:03

So it's really, taking your, you can take your knowledge and understanding of US based recruiting that, you know, everything is local. I think that's a real estate term, like, everything is local. Right? But it applies very much in recruiting and you can extrapolate that globally to remember that everything is local. You need to be able to work with the right people on the ground, and collaborate with the right people on the ground so that, they're you're check on, hey, is this gonna work and is this culturally appropriate?

Mary Kay Baldino:
35:39

And and if you're operating off of the same basic frameworks, those frameworks can stay flexible enough and adaptable enough to what you need to do in that particular situation. Adaptability is critical.

Rhona Pierce:
35:54

Amazing. Thank you so much for your insights. This was a really, really good conversation and a great reminder to everyone about, really, at the end of the day, we're all humans. We all have the same needs no matter where we're from. Yes, there are differences that you have to keep in mind.

Rhona Pierce:
36:15

But we basically all want the same things.

Mary Kay Baldino:
36:18

We do. We do. We all want, happier lives. We all want, career development. We all wanna learn and grow as people, and we need to be treated with dignity and respect.

Mary Kay Baldino:
36:33

It's a foundation of trust. So and I I I just love working with people from all over the world. It's one of the great joys of being in a a global company.

Rhona Pierce:
36:44

Thanks to Mary Kay for sharing her insights on building strong relationships with hiring managers on a global scale. I love that she stressed the importance of being a courageous truth teller, using data and evidence to challenge biases and drive positive change, and how important it is to build frameworks that are adaptable. At the end of the day, we're all human, and we all wanna be treated with dignity and respect. This goes for our relationships with hiring managers and with our candidates. If you want more actionable advice, like the advice shared in this episode, I write a weekly newsletter for TA professionals who want to take a more strategic approach to recruiting.

Rhona Pierce:
37:24

You can sign up at throwouttheplaybook.com/newsletter. That's throwouttheplaybook.com/newsletter. The link is in the show notes. If you wanna learn more about building strong relationships with hiring managers, check out episode 3, where Amy Miller, a senior recruiter at Amazon, shares her advice for building strong partnerships with hiring managers and how to get support from management. Thanks for listening, and I'll chat with you next week.