#24: Building a Neuro-inclusive Hiring Strategy with Tameka Allen

Tameka Allen:
00:43

We would never ask someone who we could visibly see is paralyzed to walk up a flight of stairs. We just wouldn't.

Rhona Pierce:
00:53

Tameka Allen is transforming how companies think about inclusive hiring. But when her journey began with her daughter's diagnosis, she uncovered a shocking reality about our workplace.

Tameka Allen:
01:05

Just in the US, our population of those of us who identify as neurodivergent is about 20%. But when you look at subsets of our community, that group tends to have around 85 to 90% unemployment rate.

Rhona Pierce:
01:21

That's a big chunk that we're overlooking, really. Tamika realized that hiring practices often unintentionally exclude qualified candidates by setting neurotypical standards for interviews. So what is masking?

Tameka Allen:
01:41

When we're in spaces that allow us to work in the ways in which our brain works, we're like 30 to 40% more productive than our neurotypical counterparts.

Rhona Pierce:
01:51

I have so many questions. Why are you even asking that in an interview?

Tameka Allen:
01:54

Which is why it's important to audit those interview processes and really ask those questions. What does this have to do with qualifying the candidate?

Rhona Pierce:
02:02

Tameka shares her vision for a hiring process that's accessible to everyone, not just those who fit a standard mold.

Tameka Allen:
02:10

For the most part, people, when they know better, they do better. Embracing that mindset, this is what creates innovation in companies that make serious money.

Rhona Pierce:
02:22

I am so excited to have you on the show today, Tamika.

Tameka Allen:
02:26

Oh, thanks so much for having me, Rhonda. I'm excited to be here.

Rhona Pierce:
02:29

So can you tell us a bit about, like, your background and background and how you became interested in neuroinclusive practices?

Tameka Allen:
02:36

Yeah. Absolutely. So, this started quite a bit ago, my first discovery and moment around it, and it actually started with my daughter. So one of my daughters was diagnosed, neurodivergent. She was in elementary school at the time.

Tameka Allen:
02:51

I remember her teacher came to me and basically started to share, you know, I feel like there might be some some learning challenges or unique learning abilities there. And so I noticed some things as well, so she recommended we have her assessed. So we did that with a private psychologist. School psychologist got involved and were able to put some pieces together to her puzzle. And as I was looking over her evaluations, Rona, I just kept laughing because I kept recognizing some things in myself.

Tameka Allen:
03:26

And I'm like, oh, I do that too. I'm like, oh, that looks familiar. I do that as well. And as I started to relearn how to support her as well as myself, I also started to see some things mirrored in candidate employee experiences at work. So I've been working with people and talent for quite some time in various facets.

Tameka Allen:
03:47

Look, the first notice for me came up during candidate interviews. And it wasn't about, like, diagnosing people, but I just kept noticing them. My god. That feels very familiar. Whether someone disclosed or not, I started to first notice this as those candidate employee experiences seem to be swinging the direction of someone who is neurotypical.

Tameka Allen:
04:11

Right. Well, I can certainly explain what that means so people can understand. So someone neurotypical would be someone whose thoughts, ideas, perceptions really align with what we consider societal norms. So things we hear about in job postings or interview processes. So thinking faster in your feed, being able to pivot when required, multitasking, those types of things.

Tameka Allen:
04:39

So I would say after her diagnosis as well as later mine, that's when I it gave me kind of like this unique lens to where now I'm taking a second look at things, wondering, this looks familiar, and how can we make this experience better on whether someone disclosed or not?

Rhona Pierce:
04:58

That's amazing. It's always good when, like, you have the realization something in your personal life, and then you bring it to work. Because, like, we're working with people in TA so in so many different people and so quickly that those moments, and I think everyone has had them, make you be a better recruiter, a better TA person. And also HR and employee experience, it just helps you connect and understand people better even if people don't self disclose. And, yeah, like you said, you're not diagnosing people.

Rhona Pierce:
05:34

You're just picking up on things and you see things a different way.

Tameka Allen:
05:40

Yeah.

Rhona Pierce:
05:41

Has any of that shaped your work that you do with neuroinclusive environments?

Tameka Allen:
05:49

Yep. Absolutely. After my diagnosis and having kind of this moment, I started to dig into the data because I'm I'm curious. I'm always looking for information, research, love reading. And I started to find some interesting things that maybe lean into this a little bit more that led to, we've definitely got to do something about this.

Tameka Allen:
06:11

So some of those behaviors, like I told you about, that were a bit biased to those who think neurotypically. Communicating conscious concisely and quickly, multitasking, quick actions on the fly. And when I started to dig into the data, I'm like, well, what kind of population are we looking at here? Am I alone in this thing? So I started to post on LinkedIn about my journey, but also as I was researching, found out just in the US, our population of those of us who identify as neurodivergent is about 20%.

Tameka Allen:
06:43

I'm like, that's pretty significant. I quickly found out I wasn't alone and that ironically, the unemployment rate for us is extremely high as well, 30 or 40%, when you look at just overall for the neurodivergent community. But when you look at subsets of our community, like, for instance, autism, those with autism, that group tends to have around 85 to 90% unemployment rate. It's extremely high. And I just thought it was more than a coincidence that oftentimes these behaviors that cause people to be rejected out of interview processes happen to align with behaviors that are associated with neurodivergent conditions.

Tameka Allen:
07:28

And that's when I said I said, something's gotta give. We've gotta change these processes so that they're more equitable, so at least people can show up at their best, so we can properly assess them objectively in the interview process. A couple other things came up, like, is I started to look at the size of this community in comparison to other marginalized communities. Right? So from women, right, which is probably the biggest group that we have when it comes to marginalized communities here in the US, even more so than those with physical disabilities, ethnicity, race, sex, gender identity, like just that group alone of us who are neurodivergent, it's pretty significant size.

Tameka Allen:
08:17

And so but most organizations who are implementing now this is just the organizations who are implementing DEI in their strategies within those organizations. Only about 4% of those organizations include disabilities. That's visible and non visible disabilities. That's not even just the neurodivergent community. So when you put all of that together in a picture, it leaves this enormous opportunity that I believe we're missing and overlooking this talent.

Rhona Pierce:
08:48

Yeah. That's that's a big chunk that we're overlooking, really. Even companies doing or actively working on diversity and inclusion. That's that's important work that you're doing.

Tameka Allen:
09:04

It's very telling. Right? If we just take a look at it and like I said, for me, it happened to me taking a closer look, happened to come through a personal experience, not realizing what I was gonna discover when I started digging into things professionally. So so from that, I started to learn as we were implementing and changing interview processes, how much it benefited those who were not neurodivergent as well. And thinking there's a there's a win win here for everyone if we just stop and pay attention.

Rhona Pierce:
09:35

What are some of the biggest challenges neurodivergent candidates face like in traditional job interviews?

Tameka Allen:
09:42

So not knowing what they'll be asked. Maybe when you're building out a pipeline and deciding who will be in the interview process, you decide on a set of folks, but then you change it in the middle of the process. So a candidate might be walking to an interview wanting thinking they're gonna be meeting with 1 person, and maybe now it's someone completely different. Or maybe it's now more than one person that is going to be joining that conversation and the candidate doesn't know. Right?

Tameka Allen:
10:10

Oftentimes, because neurodivergent talent is trying to find those places where they can show up in the ways in which their brain works, Maybe there are some short stints in on their resume that people would consider to be job hoppers. Right? Or maybe it was due to something related to their condition is the reason why they have those short stints. Communication. So processing audible information.

Tameka Allen:
10:37

Right? Especially if you're walking into a situation for a virtual interview and the captions are on in that call, which I find that pretty common, unfortunately, to where, you know, you have this technology, you invest in it for your teams, but this is a simple switch that could be turned on. Here's a big one. Picking up on social cues. Right?

Tameka Allen:
11:00

And I'll use myself as an example. I remember in one of my past roles, it wasn't uncommon for junior recruiters to come to me because they wanted to shadow my interviews. And I remember one particular instance, Rongal, where a junior recruiter was shadowing an interview. And afterwards, we were debriefing about the candidate. And she asked she said, did you mind if I share something with you?

Tameka Allen:
11:21

And I said, no. Absolutely. Go ahead. And she said, I felt like that candidate was really condescending to you. I said, really?

Tameka Allen:
11:30

And when she reminded me of what he was saying in the moment, I didn't catch that because that that's something that comes along with where I am. But she brought it to my attention, and it's evidence of, oftentimes, we have to process after the fact to really understand. And so that's why, for me, I will almost never tell a candidate in an interview whether or not they were going to move forward or not. But in this instance, can you imagine what that might look like with the candidate who's not picking up on cues from a recruiter, right, or a hiring manager in an interview process? So these are some of the things in addition to masking.

Tameka Allen:
12:10

Right?

Rhona Pierce:
12:10

So what is masking?

Tameka Allen:
12:12

Yeah. So masking is basically us showing up in a way that does not reveal our condition. And that can happen whether we know it or not. I realized even after my diagnosis that I had been masking, like, my entire life, showing up in a way to where I'll be accepted, where I'll fit in, and it can really cause a lot of distress for someone who's neurodivergent, which is another reason why these processes should be more inclusive.

Rhona Pierce:
12:45

Yeah. I mean, I I had heard of the term masking as I was preparing for this interview, and it's just I have neurodivergent people in my family. I won't disclose on their behalf, but it gave me like such sadness to know that we've created a society where people feel that they have to act in a certain way. It's like, who says because most people and really after hearing some of these statistics, does not really most people, but who says because a lot of people act this way, everyone else needs to act this way. And how are we going about and talking about diversity, equity, and inclusion for so many years when there is a huge part of the population acting in a way that makes us include them.

Rhona Pierce:
13:39

That blows my mind. So sad.

Tameka Allen:
13:42

Yeah. Yeah. It's mind boggling to wonder, and it's been the norm for so long. Right? But I'm grateful for as sad as those statistics make me, I'm grateful that we know now because we can we can start to make change.

Rhona Pierce:
13:55

Yeah. Because once you know and everyone listening or watching this episode, once you know, you now have the responsibility to make change. And as TA people in organizations, this is such easy things. Like you said, you mentioned the captions, and I heard you speak at at breakfast, and it's like, oh my gosh. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce:
14:18

We have it there, and people can request. But why are we waiting for people to request? Like, the amount of people that are gonna say, please turn off the captions is so like, no one's gonna say that. So just have them turned on. That way, people who need it don't have to ask you for it.

Rhona Pierce:
14:35

Simple things like that.

Tameka Allen:
14:37

Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Because, I mean, from an ADA perspective, we've been doing this with physical buildings for a long time, right? Having ramps, elevators, things to where we would never ask someone who we could visibly see is paralyzed to walk up a flight of stairs.

Tameka Allen:
14:54

We just wouldn't. Most buildings have it accessible to where no one has to ask that's already prepared because they already anticipate someone with a physical disability is going to come. And this is the way I wish we will approach more of interviews with candidates.

Rhona Pierce:
15:11

That is such great perspective, and I hadn't thought about it that way, but it's true. You like, the ramps are there. The designated parking spots are there. For blind people, the on the signs. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce:
15:23

The braille. Mhmm. It's there. You they don't have to ask you for these things. Great perspective.

Rhona Pierce:
15:31

What are some common misconceptions about neurodivergent candidates that you found throughout your work, and how do you help hiring managers see things differently?

Tameka Allen:
15:42

Yeah. A couple examples come to mind. Like, this is a big one. We've heard a lot about this on LinkedIn. Being off camera during a virtual interview.

Tameka Allen:
15:51

And also, even if you're in person, maybe the maybe the candidate isn't giving you direct eye contact. And so when I think about when these things have come up with hiring managers, here's how I go about helping them understand why this is not equitable. Right? So just say a hiring manager, I've had this happen, rejected wanted to reject a qualified candidate because they were off camera. And I asked them, I said, tell me more about that.

Tameka Allen:
16:19

Why you feel that way? And why are you leaning towards this decision? And they would tell me, you know, this isn't professional. How do I know it's really them? These are some of the objections that I would get reject objections that I would get.

Tameka Allen:
16:33

And so I would just kind of clarify. So I'm hearing you say. Right? And then as I go into my response, I want to make sure that I'm protecting the candidate. Because if they've disclosed, right, we'll share accommodations and things that need to take place in an interview process for someone who has disclosed.

Tameka Allen:
16:52

But we're not going to disclose, right, a conditioning of a candidate shared or anything like that. So I'll make sure to protect the candidate whether they disclose or not to say the candidate has not disclosed this to me. This is from my experience and my knowledge, helping those in accommodations that some of the behaviors you just described, like being off camera, could be related to a condition that causes sensory overload. And so this isn't something we want to penalize a candidate for. Right?

Tameka Allen:
17:25

And that this behavior be aligned with a protected class. And so if the manager hasn't had any training on this, we go into the discussion about what that means. Right? So based on the essential functions of the job, why do you wish to reject this candidate? And so that's usually the question I leave them with, and some have been able to answer me.

Tameka Allen:
17:47

Others haven't. In this particular instance, the manager couldn't answer me. And so that candidate did move forward in the interview process. They were later rejected, but it was for an objective reason. Right?

Tameka Allen:
17:59

And so that was a learning lesson for that hiring manager to understand. And from that point on, they really whenever we would have a debrief about a candidate, whether it had to do with someone potentially showing these behaviors or not, They were a bit more open and understood the importance of their reasoning behind their their higher decisions.

Rhona Pierce:
18:19

Just asking that and really centering as TA people, that's what we should be doing in general for every candidate. It's like, I mean, I'm sure you've heard it. I've heard so many things for reasons to reject someone. And it's like, the biggest way I've learned to control my face has been by talking to hiring managers and asking them why they wanna reject someone. Because I've heard I've heard some wild things.

Rhona Pierce:
18:46

And when you spoke at breakfast about turning off the cameras, I know you got a question from the audience, and I also see this online if people are like, well, how am I gonna know it's really the candidate? And I've had that question asked as well, and I think I shared it with you, 2 stories of why this doesn't even matter. In person interview. So we're talking this was probably 2014. In person interview, I did phone interviews and everything, and the recruiter so I was the hiring manager.

Rhona Pierce:
19:22

Right? So the recruiter had had spoken to the candidate. When the candidate comes to the office, I am sitting and I am talking to this person, and I am a 100% confident this is not the person I spoke to on the phone. This is absolutely not that person. After the interview, I debriefed with a recruiter, and it just I said something like, oh, it was interesting.

Rhona Pierce:
19:47

They had this accent. They're like, they had done a in person interview. It was a different person just when we talked about it. So people were scamming because it does happen, especially in tech. It happens a lot.

Rhona Pierce:
20:02

They're going to do it even if you're virtual or not. That's one example. Another example is I've hired someone, and this is one of my mistakes in hiring that I did, but I had no clue. Interview was perfect. It was virtual.

Rhona Pierce:
20:17

Interview was perfect. Everything, candidate looked great. Person was hired. Right? Person who shows up for work is not the candidate that I hired.

Rhona Pierce:
20:32

And it was just like, we didn't know. It was a couple of weeks. And then I just, hey. You know, I'm a recruiter who likes to check-in with people to see how they're doing, and this is a remote job. And it's like, let's jump on a quick Zoom.

Rhona Pierce:
20:47

And they try to avoid it, but I'm like, no. No. No. It doesn't matter if you're not ready. It doesn't like, come on.

Rhona Pierce:
20:52

It's just me. Different human. Like, totally different human. So all of that to say, just because someone doesn't turn on their camera during an interview doesn't mean that they're scamming or anything like that. Yes.

Rhona Pierce:
21:07

It's most likely something of what you've mentioned. And there's so many other conditions as far as people live in places where they're not comfortable. They they don't have the privacy to have a interview without the background distracting or they're not proud of their background. So many things. So when we talk about diversity, equity, and inclusion, things like someone not turning on their camera during an interview are not that is not a disqualifier.

Rhona Pierce:
21:38

It shouldn't be.

Tameka Allen:
21:39

That's right. That's right. Especially given only about 4% of employees with disabilities disclose. So this person is taking it because statistically, I was and I mentioned this at RecFest as well, there's been some research that has come out. I follow Culture Amp's research very well.

Tameka Allen:
21:57

Their DEI team does an amazing job of putting together reports. And this around intersectionality, right? This is what this report was talking about regarding disability and just this concept that we do. We have people with multiple that identify with multiple marginalized communities identities. And how it actually the statistics get worse with the more identities that you have associated with the marginalized community.

Tameka Allen:
22:29

So for someone who is neurodivergent, just neurodivergent, we're not talking about race, ethnicity. For someone to disclose that they have a disability to you tells me there is a level of trust there, that they're entrusting you, that you're going to do the right thing with that information. And they're taking a huge risk because, unfortunately, for those who have disclosed, statistics say there's an likely chance of an adverse impact. Right? So for them to do that and take that risk to potentially lie to you, to tell you they're neurodivergent, that they can have their camera off, it's a wild idea.

Tameka Allen:
23:06

Yeah. I'm not saying impossible. It's just wild.

Rhona Pierce:
23:09

Exactly. That's the best way to say it. It's a wild idea. In addition to some of the things that you've already mentioned, what are some other practical accommodations that can be made so that you can ensure that neurodivergent candidates have a fair chance to show their skills?

Tameka Allen:
23:25

Yep. Absolutely. So setting expectations in advance with as much context as possible. And I say that meaning upfront, typical things we will continue to be like a stellar experience for candidates. Right?

Tameka Allen:
23:42

Sending interview questions in advance, but even upon that first touch point of candidates coming into your pipeline from before the first interview, giving context of who they're going to be talking to, what you all can expect to talk about, how long the interview is going to be, how many stages are in the interview process, just information so that for a lot of us, having that context in advance can help us prepare for us to show up at our best. But just communicating those things in advance, which actually, these are all things that normally tick up those NPS scores for candidates in interview processes. Right? Offering various forms of communication. So kind of going back to this thing around, you know, folks having an issue with candidates being off camera.

Tameka Allen:
24:29

Well, you can communicate to them that you they need to be on camera. Right? That is a requirement. But offering various options of ways to communicate. So if someone wants to show up off camera, on camera, maybe they prefer a phone call.

Tameka Allen:
24:45

You have some people who can do that. Right? So just offering those various forms of communication and being open to that. And then the other thing aside from, like I mentioned before, automatically turning on the captions, is getting rid of the gotcha questions. Like, just really being strategic around the questions that you're asking because this is a telltale sign you probably should work on your interview processes by opening up asking a candidate, tell me about yourself.

Tameka Allen:
25:13

This question is so wide opening. Anyone who's had a candidate, they say, is long winded or whatever. You open the door by asking them, tell me about yourself. Right? Be more specific.

Tameka Allen:
25:23

Like, ask yourself, what is the point? What is it we're trying to learn about the candidate by asking this question? Because at minimum, from a compliance standpoint, now you're treading into waters that could open up conversations about protected class. Maybe they've been a caregiver. Maybe they took time off after they had a child.

Tameka Allen:
25:43

Maybe they took a mental wellness break. These are not conversations we want to be having with candidates because it opens other doors. We don't want these things to interview notes. Like, it's just it's not equitable. I guess not fair.

Rhona Pierce:
25:55

Yes. And I love that you mentioned we don't want these things in interview notes because, look, anyone who's been recruiting for a long time, you know, you can edit that out and you can be like, okay. I'm not the candidate disclosed, I'm not gonna write that in the interview notes. Perfect. Guess what?

Rhona Pierce:
26:11

Now most ATSs, most companies are, and I agree with this, using AI to transcribe interviews. That's gonna save us a lot of time. Well, if you're asking things that are gonna get you that type of answer and AI is transcribing it, it is in the notes. Even if you edit it, that's saved. And we could talk about that at length.

Rhona Pierce:
26:34

If you don't want things that could get you in legal trouble, don't ask things that could give you answers that could get you in legal trouble. Yes. Simple.

Tameka Allen:
26:43

Yes. Yes. And all of these things are tied to employer brand. Candidates talk. They're going to go back and tell other people about this experience.

Tameka Allen:
26:52

And in a perfect world, right, when things are done, not, I won't say perfect, but when things are done well, ideally, if some if a candidate is hired or not, you want them to walk away from that experience to say, you know what? I didn't get selected, but this is the one of the best interview processes I've ever been in. I've had that feedback from candidates by making some of these changes that we talked about.

Rhona Pierce:
27:15

Yes. And that's the best feeling. You know, that feeling when you send a rejection email and you get a reply, because I always send my rejection emails from me and any team that I've led, we don't use no reply for rejection emails.

Tameka Allen:
27:27

Okay. That's good.

Rhona Pierce:
27:29

And you get the hate. You get hate back and okay. You understand it. But when you get a thank you email from someone that you rejected because your process made them feel like a human. Yeah.

Rhona Pierce:
27:43

That's why I do what I do.

Tameka Allen:
27:44

Yep. I love that.

Rhona Pierce:
27:46

Yeah. So we've spoken a bit about this. What are some practical steps? Okay. So we've spoken about sending interview questions, explaining the process.

Rhona Pierce:
27:58

I go a bit and even say create videos. We're inter introducing some of the people, the key players that are gonna be in the process and explaining all of these things. Is there anything else that companies can do to make their interview process more accessible for neurodiverse candidates?

Tameka Allen:
28:16

Yep. So I wanna preface this with 2 things. One, kind of going back to the practical accommodations. Accommodations are so much more than a checklist. I think, I've seen there be pushback around this area after a candidate starts if they disclose, here, let's go through the accommodations process.

Tameka Allen:
28:38

And then they say it and forget it, and it's never readdressed. And the reason why it's really important to understand why this is more than a checklist is because if you have someone who has been neuro diagnosis neurodivergent as an adult, they're having to relearn, right, how to support themselves, unlearn the art of masking, and really being transparent and being aware of what they're experiencing so that they can ask for or support themselves or ask for support. So in that relearning and readjusting, there's gonna inevitably you're gonna have to adjust the accommodations as well. There are gonna be things they're gonna become aware of after day 1 or after their first touch point. 60 days, 6 months, even a year, they're gonna continue to become aware of new things and new ways that they could navigate they need to navigate from day to day.

Tameka Allen:
29:37

The other part is, aside from going through this checklist, right, is is super, super important. And I've seen the most impactful change when you have leaders who have growth mindsets, who are not just focused on doing things one way, who are not just looking for candidates to do things exactly the way that they want them to. Right? And realize, like my mom used to say, there's more than one way to pluck a chicken. There's more than one way to accomplish an outcome.

Tameka Allen:
30:08

And without embracing that growth mindset, these things will appear to be performative. Right? And it also takes away from that candidate experience because the leader is not understanding you're not an expert in this area. The candidate knows what's going on with them. Right?

Tameka Allen:
30:30

And most accommodations are either free or low cost. They are.

Rhona Pierce:
30:35

Would it be appropriate for, let's say, first because I know I usually include in the scheduling link, you know, you're using a Calendly or something. You ask if someone needs accommodations. And people usually answer it for the first one with the recruiter, not necessarily for the subsequent ones with hiring managers and teams. Would it be appropriate for a recruiter, anyone guiding and organizing the process to reach back to candidates, like, midway and see, like, hey. So far, you've done so good.

Rhona Pierce:
31:06

You're moving on to the next one. Are there any accommodations? Like, is it appropriate to ask that again throughout the process?

Tameka Allen:
31:13

Absolutely. And I've even trained hiring managers if a candidate not telling them a specific candidate, but just in training. If a candidate asks for accommodations and shares that with you, that immediately connect sync with us so that we can take that process from there. So that's super important, and that's a very valid point. So thanks for for bringing that out.

Tameka Allen:
31:35

But to further answer your question around those practical steps that organizations can take, like I said, first, just making sure you have that growth mindset to understand this is a learning process. Right? It's something that is gonna be a focus of continuous improvement. But first, I would say start with auditing your hiring process. Are you using candidate experience surveys to collect data, quantitative and qualitative data, on what is happening in your interview processes.

Tameka Allen:
32:06

Right? If you're a people, talent, or even DEI practitioner, or maybe it's you having listening tours, just sitting in our interviews observing what's going on. Right? So you can, properly assess the picture that's happening in your individual candidate experience and interview processes. If you're not collecting that feedback from candidates, it is really critical to do so.

Tameka Allen:
32:30

Right? I think there hasn't been too many organizations that have not had an issue with negative glass door reviews or other sites that are coming out doing something similar. I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice if you don't collect that information. If you wanna improve those candidate experiences, you have to get their perspective on what's going on and see if you can identify those themes of what's happening. And then just continuously train, learn, rinse, and repeat.

Tameka Allen:
33:00

Train your people, talent teams, and the interviewers coming through the process for this caring experience so everyone is on the same page and understand the opportunity in front of them. But also, it creates less work because now you're not having to take all this energy to go back and try to fix these broken experiences or try to unfortunately, I've seen this organizations do this and happen to have a conversation. Just very negative Glassdoor reviews with positive ones instead of just fixing the process in the first place.

Rhona Pierce:
33:34

And what I tell the companies that I work with is gone are the days where a negative Glassdoor review was your biggest problem. Because here's the thing. People could turn on their phone a quick 15 second, 32nd video on TikTok about what they experience with you will go viral, and there's no amount of positive videos that you can do to shove it down like you used to do with Glassdoor reviews. So ask candidates proactively and fix stuff. Yes.

Rhona Pierce:
34:10

Yep. Because tanking your employee your employer brand is so easy.

Tameka Allen:
34:17

Yes. It is easy. It is it's absolutely easy.

Rhona Pierce:
34:22

So we all know that change can be met with resistance sometimes, especially in what we do because everyone thinks they know how to hire and everyone thinks they're doing it the right way. And who are you recruiter to tell me how to do it? But can you share a story about how you've helped a skeptical leader or member of a team, because we do have people, NTA teams that are skeptical about this, value neuroinclusive hiring.

Tameka Allen:
34:51

Mhmm. I in a past role, there was an executive leader who literally said this to the TA team. And all those interviewers who were not on the TA team. Look for a reason not to hire them. And I was really thrown.

Tameka Allen:
35:09

I'm like, wait, what? And so what we decided to do was at this point, we implemented candidate experience surveys. Within those surveys, we included a voluntary self identification so that we could customize those identities, right, that were come coming through more than the standard EEOC form would have. We did this over the course of a quarter. And at the end of the quarter, we sat down, collected all the data, we analyzed it, and we found things with identities associated with disabled vets, with women, with those who identify with the LGBTQI plus community, and ethnicity and race.

Tameka Allen:
35:55

And yet the largest consistent complaint came from the neurodivergent community. I have bad experience. Like, it was it was shockingly large. I mean, like, close to 50% of the people who did that. And and I was wondering.

Tameka Allen:
36:13

I'm like, wow. How do we get so many people to to disclose that voluntarily? And one of the ways we did that was after as people entered the interview process, we gave them a heads up that they were gonna be getting frequent touch points to check-in around this during the pipeline experience and share with them how we plan to use this data and that we wanted one of our intentions was to improve the interview process. And so we're just kinda giving that heads up and setting those expectations and giving the reason why. Based on the results, people felt more comfortable sharing that information.

Rhona Pierce:
36:51

Yeah. It's it's amazing. It's like that's the basic human. Like, even when you create a poll on LinkedIn or Twitter or something like that, when you tell people what you're gonna use the data for, you get more engagement. You get more answers.

Rhona Pierce:
37:05

So, yes, definitely. When you have these surveys, tell candidates. Yeah. 1, tell them about it before they get slapped with it randomly, and tell them what you're going to do with that information. Yes.

Rhona Pierce:
37:19

That's one part of thing. The other part that I like is having data is how you can make changes as a TA person with an executive. Right? Because they can't argue with data. They literally can't.

Tameka Allen:
37:33

And that's what happened in this situation that catapulted to a complete revamping of hiring processes and un undoing this thought of looking for reasons not to hire people.

Rhona Pierce:
37:48

That's such an old school approach to hiring that I fought because I don't come from the traditional TA. I didn't grow up in the TA world. I was a software engineer Mhmm. Who moved to TA. I've always looked at things differently, and I'm like, what do you mean we're trying to find reasons why not to hire them?

Rhona Pierce:
38:08

No. I'm trying to figure out why I should hire them. That's my approach when I go into an interview.

Tameka Allen:
38:15

Wow. I love that.

Rhona Pierce:
38:17

I don't know. For to me, sometimes it's hard to understand how people think in a certain way because it's just like, I don't see it that way. But I mean, it it is what it is. It's out there. And that's why having data and having, like, this communication with candidates is really how you can make change to people who think differently than you, and they're not seeing it.

Rhona Pierce:
38:40

They're not I have this fundamental belief that most executives and most hiring managers and people outside of TA, they are not saying any of these things on purpose. They're not out to, like Mhmm. They're not evil people. They're not it's just literally what they've learned along the way because no one teaches you how to hire. It's what they've learned along the way and what they've believed.

Tameka Allen:
39:06

Yeah. And to add to that, I thought about, I really I agree with you. I do. Because most leaders that I engage, when we have these conversations and they have these moments, one of the first things they say is, I didn't know. Right?

Tameka Allen:
39:19

And I can honestly say, unless you're in that world purposely, it can be really easy to overlook these things and assume. But I think this is the importance of surrounding yourself with people who look and think differently than you, that you can understand their experiences. I can remember when my my daughter was diagnosed and one of my best friends, she presented, very hyperactive. Right? And I remember one of my best friends, she was like, whew.

Tameka Allen:
39:47

She is doing a lot. Right? And, it was maybe a year or so later, her son was diagnosed as well. And she just looked at me, and she said, I'm so sorry. And I said, you didn't know.

Tameka Allen:
40:00

Right? So I say all that to say, for the most part, people when they know better, they do better. But just and when we think about from the business perspective, why this can be embracing this talent can be so valuable is because I've seen it time and time again. And statistically, when we're in spaces that allow us to work in the ways in which our brain works, we're like 30 or 40% more productive than our neurotypical counterparts. Right?

Tameka Allen:
40:27

Because we're allowed to work and flow in a way that works for us that still gets the best outcome. Right? So just embracing that mindset. This is what creates innovation in companies that make serious money. Right?

Tameka Allen:
40:43

I've seen it year over year profits well over 100%, retaining teams, retaining customers, closing deals. Like, I'm just seeing it so many times that I just hope we continue to tap into this this demographic.

Rhona Pierce:
40:59

I love that you've mentioned all of those, like, ripple effect, things that happen from neuroinclusive hiring practices because at the end of the day, that's the information that you can take back to leaders. That's what they wanna know because it's like, cool. Why am I doing this if what I've been doing so far has been working for me? Well, has it? Because if we do this, then we get higher productivity, innovation, all the things that you've mentioned.

Rhona Pierce:
41:27

Any other ripple effect type of things that that happen as a result of neuroinclusive hiring?

Tameka Allen:
41:33

Yeah. So long term post onboarding, I've seen it improve employee engagement as well as retention. Because here's the thing I'm not sure that people understand and realize around those of us who identify with a disability. For those of us who choose to continue our career internally, the last thing we want to be doing is going through another interview process. Like, real talk.

Tameka Allen:
41:57

Like, we're more motivated to keep the job, right, as long as we're able to work in a way that works along with our brain, that still benefits everyone.

Rhona Pierce:
42:08

Yes. And I could I mean, I don't have evidence for this. I know for myself, that's true for most people as well. Interviewing and the job market, it's it sucks. Mhmm.

Rhona Pierce:
42:24

Unfortunately, it sucks. So when you treat people the right way, beginning to end, they're going to stay because who wants to go back out there? I I mean, I know I don't wanna go back out there once you're in a company. You've gone through all of this. So imagine, like, not having to mask, not having to explain all of this all over again.

Rhona Pierce:
42:50

Come on. Retention. Of course, retention is a great side effect or ripple effect of this.

Tameka Allen:
42:56

It's good for business.

Rhona Pierce:
42:58

Yes. Yes. It is. So for listeners who are just, like, starting to think about neurodiversity in their hiring processes, what's like a small but impactful change they could implement right away?

Tameka Allen:
43:11

I would say a small but effective change they could make right away is if you are using Zoom, Microsoft Teams, or another platform for your interview process, just turn the captions on. Turn them on. And then the other thing I would say is for those who have some sort of in person interviews, provide those interview questions and things, but provide a visual around your conversation. I remember, just talking about many of our conditions are impact our working memory. Right?

Tameka Allen:
43:45

And I remember, having to have a conversation with the hiring manager because they wanted to disqualify a candidate because they couldn't memorize the company values. Come on. We I was we end up having a discussion of why why is this in here? They can find that on the website. But helping them understand that there are identities of protected class where it could impact their working memory.

Tameka Allen:
44:11

And for you to provide this to them verbally and then having them recite that back to you is an equitable process and could inadvertently reject candidates who identify with a disability out of the process.

Rhona Pierce:
44:23

I have so many questions. Why are you even asking that in an interview? It's like, you know, the worst feeling a candidate can have is sitting there. And I know because I've had it is sitting there and thinking, why are you asking me this question?

Tameka Allen:
44:38

Mhmm. Why? Which is why it's important to audit those interview processes and really ask those questions. Why are we asking this? What does this have to do with qualifying the candidate aligning with the essential function of the job?

Tameka Allen:
44:52

Please share that with me.

Rhona Pierce:
44:53

Yes. That's such a great question. I hope everyone's taking note of it because it's like, yes. There are nicer ways of that. Why are you asking this question?

Rhona Pierce:
45:03

How is this helping us figure out that this person is going to be successful in this role, in this company, on this team?

Tameka Allen:
45:13

Mhmm.

Rhona Pierce:
45:14

So this has been an amazing conversation. I'm so glad we got to chat more after your your talk at breakfast. I really wanted to dig in more and be able to share with the listeners of this podcast. How can listeners connect with you?

Tameka Allen:
45:32

Absolutely. Thank you so much, Veronika, for having me. It was so great to meet you in person. We're in Nashville, so I enjoyed our time together then and now. Listeners can connect with me on LinkedIn at Tameka N Allen on LinkedIn.

Tameka Allen:
45:46

They can also check me out on my website for my company, my culture at, modculture.co.

Rhona Pierce:
45:55

Amazing. And I'm going to include all of those links in the show notes, and I'll also include and I haven't asked you about this, but I know that guide that you included after your breakfast conversation was amazing, and I would love to share it with listeners. So I'll get a link from you so that we can include that also in the show notes. Trust me. That guide is it's great.

Tameka Allen:
46:22

Excellent. Absolutely. Let's do it. Perfect.

Rhona Pierce:
46:25

If you want more actionable advice, like the advice shared in this episode, I write a weekly newsletter for TA professionals who want to take a more strategic approach to recruiting. You can sign up at throwouttheplaybook.com/newsletter. That's throwouttheplaybook.com/newsletter. The link is in the show notes.